Harvey Pekar is not a cartoonist, but his comic book American Splendor is one of the most influential of the underground movement. His slice-of-working-class-life stories have been illustrated by a revolving door of talented scribblers, including his old record-collecting friend Robert Crumb.
Just like Crumb, Pekar gained wider recognition for his work with the release of a critically acclaimed and Oscar-nominated movie named after his autobiographical comic American Splendor, where he was played by Paul Giamatti, as well as by himself. He continues to lay out his stick-figure storyboards and gets artists like Gary Dumm to illustrate his grumbling tales of life in Cleveland.
Pekar and Dumm have just published Ego & Hubris: The Michael Malice Story (Ballantine Books Hardcover), but the story takes place far from Cleveland and barely features the cantankerous Pekar. It's another real-life tale, but about an aggressive and smart young anarchist and libertarian.
The character couldn't be farther from Pekar, yet his story fits neatly into the Pekar oeuvre, a body of work that is growing. There's another book from Ballantine coming called Macedonia, and DC Comics is scheduled to resume publication of Pekar's flagship title American Splendor this fall. He's also working with Paul Buhle on books about the Students for Democratic Society and the Beats.
Even though Pekar knows nothing about the internet, he was more than happy to spend some time chatting with Mr. Skin about his achievements. While his work isn't known for its "fast-forward to" scenes, he still has a warm spot for Italian actresses.
Is Ego Hubris the first time you've worked on a story where you were not the main or an integral character?
No. I did a book for [comics publisher] Dark Horse and I did it about a soldier, called Unsung Hero. But it didn't sell very well--none of my stuff did for Dark Horse. That was nonfiction, biography.
What made you return to another story like that?
I frequently, although I haven't regularly made people other than myself the protagonist of my stories, I've done that fairly often. Well, I just ran across this guy and he seemed real interesting. As a result of [American Splendor] there was more demand for my work, and I thought he'd make an interesting topic to write about.
Michael Malice doesn't seem like the kind of guy you'd want to work with, let alone devote the time and effort to tell his story, so what was it about him that compelled you to take on the task?
I take it that you were not too crazy about the guy.
I thought he was fascinating, but not the most likeable character.
In the first place, he doesn't act vindictive all the time. And he's a smart guy, and we were both interested in politics, although we have pretty widely differing philosophies. The guy was willing to take unpopular stands and take on authority figures; I liked that about him, I thought that was interesting.
There's definitely something to be said about accepting and befriending people who don't share your opinions, that's admirable, I'm just curious why you wanted to write a book about someone like that.
Like I say, he was worth writing about. I thought he was an unusual person. Another thing I like about him, if you get into discussion with this guy, a lot of times if you disagree he has good arguments on his side and makes you reexamine your position and not just take the things you say for granted. I thought that was good.
How does Malice feel about your portrayal of him?
He's seen it. He's fine with it. Look, I did this thing like a Studs Terkel book, so those are [Malice's] words. If he didn't like it he would have only himself to blame. He said what he wanted to say and put forward parts of his personality that he thought most interesting or compelling.
How did you feel about the film version of your life with American Splendor?
People interpreting my work are not new to me, and it wasn't new when the movie came out. It's been dramatized in the theater before. Cartoon artists and illustrators had drawn me in various ways, so I was not particularly surprised like that when they made the movie.
What's surprising was how good I thought it was. For the kind of money they offered me, it would have been OK with me if they screwed up the material, you know? I'd just cry all the way to the bank, I guess.
But it was an amazingly good job, considering a lot of comic-book artists complain all the time how badly the movie industry treats their product and how little respect it has for it, I was very pleased. I just couldn't get over the fact that these people not only made a good movie, they made a movie where they were experimenting.
Were you aware that they wanted to include you in front of the camera?
Not immediately, no. It's OK with me. I've been in a couple of movies before and I'm kind of a clown or a ham, whatever you want to call me. I was in documentaries. In a sense, I was playing myself, which is what I do all the time anyway.
Do you get recognized on the streets now?
Yeah, people recognize me. It's not like going to an airport and a crowd of people rushes over to me and asks for my autograph, but maybe I'll sit down and I'll notice somebody looking at me with a quizzical look on their face. After a while, they'll come up to me and ask, "Aren't you Harvey Pekar? I really liked that movie." That happens to me.
Does that bring people to the source material, your comic book?
The sales of my comic book have improved quite a bit since the movie came out and I guess it's attributable to the movie. My comic, in the past, didn't sell very well at all.
Any plans for more acting or adaptations of your work?
Yeah, I'd like to get my work adapted by movies again, just simply because there's so much money in it [laughs]. I'd be interested in working on a play or TV performance.
Have you been approached after the success of American Splendor to develop a television show?
No. There was interest in making a movie before this movie was made. Back in 1980, Jonathan Demme was trying to make a movie on my life.
Sadly that's the normal timeframe to get a picture from development to the screen. Faster is the internet, and I noticed you have a blog at HarveyPekar.com, but it's not been updated in nearly three years. What happened?
They stopped paying me.
Any chance of going live with that again?
In view of the fact that I'm computer illiterate--what happened was my wife would get me on a computer and then I'd type my log out with two fingers and then she'd transmit it. That's how I do stuff. I mean, I write articles and reviews that way too.
Do you remember the first time you saw nudity in the movies?
Gosh, I can't. It didn't seem to make a big impression on me, huh?
Are there any nude scenes that you particularly enjoyed?
I like looking at good-looking women. That's something I've enjoyed.
Did you ever have any obsession over a screen sex siren?
When I was a kid, I used to like Silvana Mangano (Picture: ), an Italian actress. The film that she was in that gained the most interest was Riso amaro. You know the Italian neo-realist films that were made after the Second World War? She was involved in that movement. You know, Gina Lollobrigida (Picture: - - 3) is real nice looking...
Coming from the underground comics scene, where people like your collaborator Robert Crumb have exorcised all manner of fetishistic fantasies, how come your autobiographical work is never overtly sexual?
Because I'm so downtrodden... I don't know. If I could just get a girl out on a date it was a big deal. If you look through the book you'll find there are some sex scenes, but I didn't emphasize that. I didn't want to. That's what a lot of underground cartoonists were doing at the time. That was their stock in trade. I wanted to stay away from that stuff, doing what everybody else was doing.
I've read your comics for a long time, but the first time I actually saw you as opposed to a cartoon of you was when you made a series of guest appearances on Late Night with David Letterman back in the '80s. Do you have any plans to return to Letterman's show?
Naw, he won't have me back.
Was there a true animosity there, it wasn't part of the shtick?
No, it was definitely not. I had nothing to lose. I was very dissatisfied by being on that show. I wasn't getting much money, my books were not selling as a result of my being on the show, which is I what I originally hoped would happen. I like kidding around and doing comedy. I'm not a professional, but I'm one of these guys who used to be a class clown or street-corner comedian. I like to joke around and do comedic work, but all he wanted me to do was a self-parody.
He was just making fun of you?
Yeah, that's what it amounted to: Look at this slob from Cleveland--isn't it something, let's all laugh. I don't mind that for a couple of shows, but if that's what it's going to be all the time and I'm not getting anything out of it then why should I mess around. I said, "Screw it," I'm going to do what I want to do on the show, and I did. He's a control freak. He doesn't want to let go of control of his show. He knows damn well there's no way I'm going to let him do that with me. There was no point, from his standpoint, having me come back on the show because I would just make a shambles out of it.
But you're keeping busy.
I'm doing everything I can do, man. My income is not sufficient from my pension and social security to live on, so I got to try and make it up some way. I'm not turning down much, I'll tell you.
Just like Crumb, Pekar gained wider recognition for his work with the release of a critically acclaimed and Oscar-nominated movie named after his autobiographical comic American Splendor, where he was played by Paul Giamatti, as well as by himself. He continues to lay out his stick-figure storyboards and gets artists like Gary Dumm to illustrate his grumbling tales of life in Cleveland.
Pekar and Dumm have just published Ego & Hubris: The Michael Malice Story (Ballantine Books Hardcover), but the story takes place far from Cleveland and barely features the cantankerous Pekar. It's another real-life tale, but about an aggressive and smart young anarchist and libertarian.
The character couldn't be farther from Pekar, yet his story fits neatly into the Pekar oeuvre, a body of work that is growing. There's another book from Ballantine coming called Macedonia, and DC Comics is scheduled to resume publication of Pekar's flagship title American Splendor this fall. He's also working with Paul Buhle on books about the Students for Democratic Society and the Beats.
Even though Pekar knows nothing about the internet, he was more than happy to spend some time chatting with Mr. Skin about his achievements. While his work isn't known for its "fast-forward to" scenes, he still has a warm spot for Italian actresses.
Is Ego Hubris the first time you've worked on a story where you were not the main or an integral character?
No. I did a book for [comics publisher] Dark Horse and I did it about a soldier, called Unsung Hero. But it didn't sell very well--none of my stuff did for Dark Horse. That was nonfiction, biography.
What made you return to another story like that?
I frequently, although I haven't regularly made people other than myself the protagonist of my stories, I've done that fairly often. Well, I just ran across this guy and he seemed real interesting. As a result of [American Splendor] there was more demand for my work, and I thought he'd make an interesting topic to write about.
Michael Malice doesn't seem like the kind of guy you'd want to work with, let alone devote the time and effort to tell his story, so what was it about him that compelled you to take on the task?
I take it that you were not too crazy about the guy.
I thought he was fascinating, but not the most likeable character.
In the first place, he doesn't act vindictive all the time. And he's a smart guy, and we were both interested in politics, although we have pretty widely differing philosophies. The guy was willing to take unpopular stands and take on authority figures; I liked that about him, I thought that was interesting.
There's definitely something to be said about accepting and befriending people who don't share your opinions, that's admirable, I'm just curious why you wanted to write a book about someone like that.
Like I say, he was worth writing about. I thought he was an unusual person. Another thing I like about him, if you get into discussion with this guy, a lot of times if you disagree he has good arguments on his side and makes you reexamine your position and not just take the things you say for granted. I thought that was good.
How does Malice feel about your portrayal of him?
He's seen it. He's fine with it. Look, I did this thing like a Studs Terkel book, so those are [Malice's] words. If he didn't like it he would have only himself to blame. He said what he wanted to say and put forward parts of his personality that he thought most interesting or compelling.
How did you feel about the film version of your life with American Splendor?
People interpreting my work are not new to me, and it wasn't new when the movie came out. It's been dramatized in the theater before. Cartoon artists and illustrators had drawn me in various ways, so I was not particularly surprised like that when they made the movie.
What's surprising was how good I thought it was. For the kind of money they offered me, it would have been OK with me if they screwed up the material, you know? I'd just cry all the way to the bank, I guess.
But it was an amazingly good job, considering a lot of comic-book artists complain all the time how badly the movie industry treats their product and how little respect it has for it, I was very pleased. I just couldn't get over the fact that these people not only made a good movie, they made a movie where they were experimenting.
Were you aware that they wanted to include you in front of the camera?
Not immediately, no. It's OK with me. I've been in a couple of movies before and I'm kind of a clown or a ham, whatever you want to call me. I was in documentaries. In a sense, I was playing myself, which is what I do all the time anyway.
Do you get recognized on the streets now?
Yeah, people recognize me. It's not like going to an airport and a crowd of people rushes over to me and asks for my autograph, but maybe I'll sit down and I'll notice somebody looking at me with a quizzical look on their face. After a while, they'll come up to me and ask, "Aren't you Harvey Pekar? I really liked that movie." That happens to me.
Does that bring people to the source material, your comic book?
The sales of my comic book have improved quite a bit since the movie came out and I guess it's attributable to the movie. My comic, in the past, didn't sell very well at all.
Any plans for more acting or adaptations of your work?
Yeah, I'd like to get my work adapted by movies again, just simply because there's so much money in it [laughs]. I'd be interested in working on a play or TV performance.
Have you been approached after the success of American Splendor to develop a television show?
No. There was interest in making a movie before this movie was made. Back in 1980, Jonathan Demme was trying to make a movie on my life.
Sadly that's the normal timeframe to get a picture from development to the screen. Faster is the internet, and I noticed you have a blog at HarveyPekar.com, but it's not been updated in nearly three years. What happened?
They stopped paying me.
Any chance of going live with that again?
In view of the fact that I'm computer illiterate--what happened was my wife would get me on a computer and then I'd type my log out with two fingers and then she'd transmit it. That's how I do stuff. I mean, I write articles and reviews that way too.
Do you remember the first time you saw nudity in the movies?
Gosh, I can't. It didn't seem to make a big impression on me, huh?
Are there any nude scenes that you particularly enjoyed?
I like looking at good-looking women. That's something I've enjoyed.
Did you ever have any obsession over a screen sex siren?
When I was a kid, I used to like Silvana Mangano (Picture: ), an Italian actress. The film that she was in that gained the most interest was Riso amaro. You know the Italian neo-realist films that were made after the Second World War? She was involved in that movement. You know, Gina Lollobrigida (Picture: - - 3) is real nice looking...
Coming from the underground comics scene, where people like your collaborator Robert Crumb have exorcised all manner of fetishistic fantasies, how come your autobiographical work is never overtly sexual?
Because I'm so downtrodden... I don't know. If I could just get a girl out on a date it was a big deal. If you look through the book you'll find there are some sex scenes, but I didn't emphasize that. I didn't want to. That's what a lot of underground cartoonists were doing at the time. That was their stock in trade. I wanted to stay away from that stuff, doing what everybody else was doing.
I've read your comics for a long time, but the first time I actually saw you as opposed to a cartoon of you was when you made a series of guest appearances on Late Night with David Letterman back in the '80s. Do you have any plans to return to Letterman's show?
Naw, he won't have me back.
Was there a true animosity there, it wasn't part of the shtick?
No, it was definitely not. I had nothing to lose. I was very dissatisfied by being on that show. I wasn't getting much money, my books were not selling as a result of my being on the show, which is I what I originally hoped would happen. I like kidding around and doing comedy. I'm not a professional, but I'm one of these guys who used to be a class clown or street-corner comedian. I like to joke around and do comedic work, but all he wanted me to do was a self-parody.
He was just making fun of you?
Yeah, that's what it amounted to: Look at this slob from Cleveland--isn't it something, let's all laugh. I don't mind that for a couple of shows, but if that's what it's going to be all the time and I'm not getting anything out of it then why should I mess around. I said, "Screw it," I'm going to do what I want to do on the show, and I did. He's a control freak. He doesn't want to let go of control of his show. He knows damn well there's no way I'm going to let him do that with me. There was no point, from his standpoint, having me come back on the show because I would just make a shambles out of it.
But you're keeping busy.
I'm doing everything I can do, man. My income is not sufficient from my pension and social security to live on, so I got to try and make it up some way. I'm not turning down much, I'll tell you.
